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- Trump Sides with CHRISTIAN BAKER who REFUSED Service to a Gay Couple!!
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Trying to argue against discrimination laws by saying "You don't have a right to get a cake from a specific baker" is like arguing against theft laws by saying "You don't have a right to own a PlayStation". No, those specific things aren't in law, but being denied those things are singular examples of larger issues that are specifically codified in the Constitution or other statutes.
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hockeybub89 posted...
Not baking a cake due to someone's immutable characteristics is seen as discrimination. Discrimination is considered wrong I agree discrimination is wrong. But not everything that's immoral should be illegal. hockeybub89 posted... What I want you to is explain to me how discrimination law is unjustifiable First, because there is a free-market solution to discrimination: stores that discriminate will get less customers than stores that do not. Second, because a law forcing a business to serve someone is unlike any other justifiable law and has worrying consequences and precedent. You should not be forced to make something you don't want to just because the government has classified it as a crime. I don't think either of us wants a situation where a bakery is forced to make a swastika cake because, hey, that's political discrimination if they don't. Third, and what is probably most important to you, is that the Christian bakery actually got MORE money than they lost because of this whole ordeal. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/bakery-refused-make-cake-lesbian-couple-raises-record-breaking-donations-n394066 tl;dr: outrage from the general public over the bakery being forced to pay $135k for not catering a lesbian wedding resulted in the bakers getting ~$370k in donations from supporters. At the end of the day, this law wound up rewarding these people for discriminating against lesbians. So not only does the law fail from a liberal perspective, it even fails from a progressive perspective since their only punishment for their bigotry was a couple years of dealing with lawyers and getting a payout of more than double what they lost. Great law, right?
Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell
(edited 5 days ago)
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yo, S*** poster! ( @Mal_Fet )
explain to me, the following: Why do people that own a business try to deny service to someone based on different beliefs not expect it to be shot down? it was tried over and over and over again and over and over again, it is rewarded to the victims of discrimination. It is not "logic" (to the other S*** poster ) to simply "go to another bakery" If someone broke a law over my expense, they will pay. @-Gavirulax- Second, explain to me why the owner of a business holds a right to push personal agenda on people in the name of the business? It says wedding cake bakery, not christian cakes. 3. Pushing this personal agenda actually violates a core Christian belief, no one has commented this at all. You are not supposed to treat people like that, it is contradicty to the faith. I/E Jack Phillips is a hypocrite. You 2 know how to S*** post and personally attack others without auguring the main points someone is trying to make Also you must not know history well, @Mal_Fet. THe founding of the USA! was there to protect against discrimination and tyranny by majority. It is why the USA is a democratic republic. You are either troll/S*** posting or really lacking in knowledge. NEWS FLASH! THE USA IS NOT A PURE FREE MARKET FFS
Be a team player, guard those super jump rings. See a team member inking a wall to swim up on? ink with them. Ink your foes into ash. http://tinyurl.com/z7hbzrr
(edited 5 days ago)
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Squidkids posted...
Why do people that own a business try to deny service to someone based on different beliefs not expect it to be shot down? it was tried over and over and over again and over and over again, it is rewarded to the victims of discrimination. It is not "logic" (to the other S*** poster ) to simply "go to another bakery" If someone broke a law over my expense, they will pay. Saying "it's the law" does not justify the existence of the law. To the question of was it wise of them to deny service to a gay couple: Apparently yes! Did you not read my last post where I explained how the bakers made more than twice as much money than they lost? Second, explain to me why the owner of a business holds a right to push personal agenda on people in the name of the business? For the same reason everyone who isn't in a business should have the right to not bake a cake for whatever reason they choose. 3. Pushing this personal agenda actually violates a core Christian belief, no one has commented this at all. I don't care about what Christians believe or if they're following the Bible correctly. Still shouldn't be able to force someone at gunpoint to bake a cake. THe founding of the USA! was there to protect against discrimination and tyranny by majority. It is why the USA is a democratic republic. You are either troll/S*** posting or really lacking in knowledge. Literally none of this is relevant to the christian bakery case.
Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell
(edited 5 days ago)
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Mal_Fet posted...
Squidkids posted...Why do people that own a business try to deny service to someone based on different beliefs not expect it to be shot down? it was tried over and over and over again and over and over again, it is rewarded to the victims of discrimination. It is not "logic" (to the other S*** poster ) to simply "go to another bakery" If someone broke a law over my expense, they will pay. You "literally" .. i just can't... https://youtu.be/8Gv0H-vPoDc?t=169 Anyways, you have a problem of not seeing the bigger picture... Do I need to use caps lock to help you read again? ANTI-DISCRIMINATION LAWS ARE IN PLACE SO S*** DOES NOT SNOWBALL INTO TYRANNY BY MAJORITY!!! Your argument FAILS hard once you go into snowball effect in completely discriminating out a good number of people by a larger group even if the larger group is doing immoral acts. This is kept in check with the democratic-republic view and this stems down to free market regulations. We where not founded on a pure free market, nor a pure democracy. Your ideas fail hard vs what is the CORE of the founding of the USA and the constitution of the USA. there is a reason why those core ideas lasted for 200+ years FFS You are pulling stawmans like no tomorrow because I am sure yo can't win this with legitimate arguments. I take it you voted for trump? you take his approach to issues. YES! it is a great law and makes F*** SENSE if you look at bigger pictures and the bigger consequences if such rules didn't exist
Be a team player, guard those super jump rings. See a team member inking a wall to swim up on? ink with them. Ink your foes into ash. http://tinyurl.com/z7hbzrr
(edited 5 days ago)
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why do people on this site still use asterisks when you can just say f*** and s*** and other words like that? so archaic...
"I can i i everything else," Bob reportedly said. Alice replied: "Balls have zero to me to me to me..." (Facebook AIs talking to each other)
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ImTheMacheteGuy posted...
why do people on this site still use asterisks when you can just say f*** and s*** and other words like that? so archaic... why do people troll and make up arguments that they do not believe them self? I do not like to curse... soo....
Be a team player, guard those super jump rings. See a team member inking a wall to swim up on? ink with them. Ink your foes into ash. http://tinyurl.com/z7hbzrr
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Good work Mal.
Gavirulax
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-Gavirulax- posted...
Good work Mal. I see, so you are admitting to be a troll and never to be taken seriously since you are the type of person with nothing better to do in real life, cant get out of the basement i guess?
Be a team player, guard those super jump rings. See a team member inking a wall to swim up on? ink with them. Ink your foes into ash. http://tinyurl.com/z7hbzrr
(edited 5 days ago)
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I have been told I have the face for it...
Gavirulax
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Given that transactions *should* be voluntary, businesses should be allowed to serve whoever they want because, unless the government stops them from providing service, other businesses will come along to take whatever customers they refuse.
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In Zeus We Trust: All Others Pay Cash |
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why do these bakers even allow their personal views to get in between their work and money
come on now the primary goal of running a business is to make money
CHOU UPPAH!!
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YuriSakazaki0 posted...
why do these bakers even allow their personal views to get in between their work and money I been trying to ask that, and it is not even a religious view, it is a personal one, Christianity faith teaches not to act like this. -Gavirulax- posted... I have been told I have the face for it... No just amazes me how pathetic it is.
Be a team player, guard those super jump rings. See a team member inking a wall to swim up on? ink with them. Ink your foes into ash. http://tinyurl.com/z7hbzrr
(edited 5 days ago)
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I wouldn't let it bother you.
Gavirulax
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Mal_Fet posted...
Post #152 I honestly don't care if dumbasses want to donate to people who discriminate. I just don't agree in government-sanctioned discrimination. They can be given $1 million by Jerry Falwell for all I care. As long as they have to provide their service to everyone who walks through that door during business hours, whatever. I really don't care to end these people's livelihoods or change their minds. I do think people should bake Nazi cakes if a paying customer asks. However, I don't think that should be explictly protected as political views are not immutable characteristics AND the bakers would only be refusing to make a specific graphic on a cake, not denying anyone business, provided these patrons are not endangering others. While I believe in elements of capitalism, it seem naive to think that the free market will always take care of itself. I would rather protect consumers from being treated second-class than hope anyone who could be discriminated against always lives somewhere where they can find a comparable business to go to instead. You pointer out these bakers got donations. Discrimination may pay in certain areas around the country. If even 1 person is treated lesser due to things beyond their control, then that is too many. I believe we have a moral responsibility to protect others from discrimination.
(edited 5 days ago)
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Mal_Fet posted...
Can you defend the law on it's own merit or can't you? Yes, quite effortlessly in fact. Discrimination is wrong and therefore anti-discrimination law is good. Its that easy.
Posted with GameRaven 3.2.2
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Zeus posted...
Given that transactions *should* be voluntary, businesses should be allowed to serve whoever they want because, unless the government stops them from providing service, other businesses will come along to take whatever customers they refuse. This only works in major cities where there actually are other businesses, assuming its not some niche store that theres only 1 or 2 of in the country.
Posted with GameRaven 3.2.2
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The problem with the arguments in this topic is that the fact that when these laws didnt exist we had business doing things like not serving minorities.
These laws protect that and if you are offering a public service you dont get to pick which type of person you get to provide service to. Also dress codes and hygiene related things are the same as not servicing someone because of their sexual preference or race etc
The night brims with defiled scum,and is permeated by their rotten stench.
Just think. Now you're all set to hunt and kill to your heart's content. |
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Squidkids posted...
-Gavirulax- posted...Good work Mal. "I got triggered"
Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/
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Mal_Fet posted...
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/bakery-refused-make-cake-lesbian-couple-raises-record-breaking-donations-n394066 raised a record-breaking amount of money on a Christian crowd funding site. People are sheep, you got any idea what the owners did to that couple? they should be locked in F*** jail for the S*** they pulled "Not only is our platform the perfect place for the Kleins to raise money, but we also appreciate the stand they are making for religious freedom," Wellhoefer told NBC News. Only proves how ill informed people are, but hey we got trump as president.
Be a team player, guard those super jump rings. See a team member inking a wall to swim up on? ink with them. Ink your foes into ash. http://tinyurl.com/z7hbzrr
(edited 5 days ago)
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YuriSakazaki0 posted...
why do these bakers even allow their personal views to get in between their work and money Because religious people aren't born with common sense
Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/
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I4NRulez posted...
The problem with the arguments in this topic is that the fact that when these laws didnt exist we had business doing things like not serving minorities. That's because when people were being dicks to minorities we had government supported laws and segregation. Now we should still strive for equality and equal rights. Yet you oppose it.
^ Hey now that's completely unfair.
https://imgtc.com/i/14JHfrt.jpg |
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UnfairRepresent posted...
I4NRulez posted...The problem with the arguments in this topic is that the fact that when these laws didnt exist we had business doing things like not serving minorities. im all for equal rights, which is why i dont think its right for a company to deny gays services.
The night brims with defiled scum,and is permeated by their rotten stench.
Just think. Now you're all set to hunt and kill to your heart's content. |
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Squidkids posted...
You "literally" .. i just can't... Yes, literally none of what you said there is relevant. Not figuratively, literally. Do you know what "literally" means? ANTI-DISCRIMINATION LAWS ARE IN PLACE SO S*** DOES NOT SNOWBALL INTO TYRANNY BY MAJORITY!!! False. They were originally put in place to keep local governments from segregating. There is no indication that, even back in the 60's, that all businesses would have voluntarily segregated their stores. This is why capitalism is good: all that matters is if a customer can pay. This is kept in check with the democratic-republic view and this stems down to free market regulations. Wrong again. Segregation was forced on businesses by racist local governments. Businesses did not collectively decide to keep blacks out, but many were forced to thanks to Jim Crow. For example, if you wanted to run a restaurant in a Jim Crow area, you were required to have a 7 foot-high wall dividing the white area and black area. Rather than deal with the expense, many businesses stopped serving black people. Again, a free market would have encouraged serving blacks, but thanks to government intervention, "tyranny by majority" got worse. YES! it is a great law and makes F*** SENSE if you look at bigger pictures and the bigger consequences if such rules didn't exist Prove that removal of this law would cause significantly more discrimination. Not all states have a law against stores discriminating against gays you know. So tell us all about how Michigan/Pennsylvania/Indiana/Ohio/etc are hellholes for gay people.
Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell
(edited 5 days ago)
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Mal_Fet posted...
Squidkids posted...You "literally" .. i just can't... clearly you don't and past that , I am not responding to your nonsense anymore, proven not worth the time soooooo... since you are spouting nonsense to troll
Be a team player, guard those super jump rings. See a team member inking a wall to swim up on? ink with them. Ink your foes into ash. http://tinyurl.com/z7hbzrr
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Mal_Fet posted...
Not all states have a law against stores discriminating against gays |
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hockeybub89 posted...
I honestly don't care if dumbasses want to donate to people who discriminate. I just don't agree in government-sanctioned discrimination. 1. Just because something isn't illegal doesn't mean the govt sanctions it. 2. It does matter if people donate to people who discriminate, because unlike in a free market system where discrimination is discouraged, our current system encourages discrimination. A law like this of course will rally the persecution complex of Christians and of course they will flock in support of anyone who is targeted by the government in this way. Why do you support a system that actually rewards people for discriminating? hockeybub89 posted... I do think people should bake Nazi cakes if a paying customer asks. At gunpoint? Like, if a baker would refuse to bake a cake in support of Nazism in any fashion, you would like to see the government come in and punish the baker? Also bear in mind that religion is also not an immutable characteristic and yet Title VII protects against religious persecution. Political affiliation is just a short jump from there. hockeybub89 posted... While I believe in elements of capitalism, it seem naive to think that the free market will always take care of itself. I would rather protect consumers from being treated second-class than hope anyone who could be discriminated against always lives somewhere where they can find a comparable business to go to instead. You pointer out these bakers got donations. Discrimination may pay in certain areas around the country. If even 1 person is treated lesser due to things beyond their control, then that is too many. They got donations from all over the country. There is no corner of the world where donations cannot reach. Like it or not, it does irk people (for good reason) when the government uses it's power to force people to do things they don't want to do, even if the government claims they're doing it for a good reason. And like it or not, this law does encourage discrimination. Idc if you like free market solutions, but you must accept that in a free market, the bakery would have lost money by turning away a paying customer. Your system wound up rewarding the bakers ~$200,000. Now I ask you: Which system is more fair?
Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell
(edited 5 days ago)
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You might have missed it, but I said I don't care if these people get money from donors. I don't care to end these people. I just care to not allow them to discriminate. I can sleep at night knowing that is much more fair to innocent consumers.
And please stop already with the "at gunpoint" emotional ploy. It makes every law that isn't for rape or murder sound inherently wrong. Again, while technically true, it requires continually ignoring the law and then breaking another law at time of arrest. You could argue that almost everything in life is killing you if you extend that type of logic everywhere. |
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hockeybub89 posted...
You might have missed it, but I said I don't care if these people get money from donors. I don't care to end these people. I just care to not allow them to discriminate. I can sleep at night knowing that is much more fair to innocent consumers. These laws don't exist in a vacuum. Look how much money there is to be made by people who claim victimhood by bad people. At worst, you may be encouraging more discrimination against gays by people who are willing to take advantage of the situation. Hope you can sleep at night knowing that! hockeybub89 posted... And please stop already with the "at gunpoint" emotional ploy. It makes every law that isn't for rape or murder sound inherently wrong. Again, while technically true, it requires continually ignoring the law and then breaking another law at time of arrest. You could argue that almost everything in life is killing you if you extend that type of logic everywhere. You could justify any unjust law by saying they resisted arrest for not following the unjust law. And no, it is not an emotional ploy. Every law is backed up by a threat of violence, as you conceded, which is why laws much be made with that idea in mind. A lot of lawmakers don't think that way, which is why there's a lot of terrible laws on the books. And no, not all crimes need to be violent to be prevented with violence. Private contracts are worthless if there's no inherent threat of violence for breaking it. You can infringe on most of people's basic human rights non-violently, but that doesn't mean human rights should never be defended with violence; they absolutely should. But woe, there's no human right to have a business bake you a cake. And that's why using violence to force someone to bake a cake is obviously immoral.
Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell |
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Disappointing to see so many people falling for the evils of libertarianism...
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Mal_Fet posted...
But woe, there's no human right to have a business bake you a cake. And that's why using violence to force someone to bake a cake is obviously immoral. But is there a human right to not be discriminated against for immutable characteristics? That is the crux of the discrimination argument. Also, as you said, not all immoral things need to be illegal. I believe something that goes against your morals should be legal (not allowing people to discriminate). Mal_Fet posted... These laws don't exist in a vacuum. Look how much money there is to be made by people who claim victimhood by bad people. At worst, you may be encouraging more discrimination against gays by people who are willing to take advantage of the situation. Like I said. Don't really give a s***. You are trying to stir a f*** that I don't have to give. I can accept a few of those worst-case scenarios knowing consumers are legally protected against discrimination.
(edited 5 days ago)
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hockeybub89 posted...
But is there a human right to not be discriminated against for immutable characteristics? If it involves discrimination under the law? Yes. If it entails forced labor of another person? No. hockeybub89 posted... Like I said. Don't really give a s***. You are trying to stir a f*** that I don't have to give. I can accept a few of those worst-case scenarios knowing consumers are legally protected against discrimination. See, this leads me to believe that you care more about feeling you support a worthy cause rather than actually helping people. Someone who genuinely wanted to fight discrimination would not support a system that encourages discrimination.
Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell
(edited 5 days ago)
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Mal_Fet posted...
hockeybub89 posted...But is there a human right to not be discriminated against for immutable characteristics? I said earlier itt, nobody forced them to open their business, so there is no forced labor involved.
Posted with GameRaven 3.2.2
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Rika_Furude posted...
I said earlier itt, nobody forced them to open their business, so there is no forced labor involved. Being in a business does not mean you have less rights than anyone else. I have an Etsy store, but guess what? I don't gotta make anything I don't want to. The government should not be dictating to businesses and employees for what reasons it's acceptable to force you to perform a task. That's how the gulags worked.
Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell
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Mal_Fet posted...
Rika_Furude posted...I said earlier itt, nobody forced them to open their business, so there is no forced labor involved. The individuals were not fined, the business was. The individuals were fined for harrassment
Posted with GameRaven 3.2.2
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Rika_Furude posted...
The individuals were not fined, the business was. They fined a person, actually.
Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell |
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Mal_Fet posted...
Being in a business does not mean you have less rights than anyone else. Apparently it does, or you wouldn't be here crying about it.
"a minority is someone who you can tell off the bat they are black/hispanic/colored. LGBT isn't a minority" - Blakkheim1
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TrevorBlack79 posted...
Apparently it does, It shouldn't.
Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell |
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Mal_Fet posted...
Rika_Furude posted...The individuals were not fined, the business was. For harrassment
Posted with GameRaven 3.2.2
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Mal_Fet posted...
TrevorBlack79 posted...Apparently it does, A business should never have the same rights as a human
Posted with GameRaven 3.2.2
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Mal_Fet posted...
TrevorBlack79 posted...Apparently it does, No, it definitely should. Businesses are subject to a host of restrictions that don't or can't apply to individual private citizens.
"a minority is someone who you can tell off the bat they are black/hispanic/colored. LGBT isn't a minority" - Blakkheim1
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Full Throttle posted...
Yes, F*** the law. Businesses should have a right to deny service to anybody whether it's race, orientation etc..30% LMFAO really CE
http://soundcloud.com/marcostaz http://i.imgur.com/AgJ8OvU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/WYvGE.gif Seven Kilo Gold Chain |
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Rika_Furude posted...
Mal_Fet posted...TrevorBlack79 posted...Apparently it does, Were they not fined because a person refused to bake a cake? TrevorBlack79 posted... No, it definitely should. Businesses are subject to a host of restrictions that don't or can't apply to individual private citizens. A business is comprised of private citizens.
Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell |
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Mal_Fet posted...
TrevorBlack79 posted...No, it definitely should. Businesses are subject to a host of restrictions that don't or can't apply to individual private citizens. Which has nothing to do with the fact that businesses are subject to a host of restrictions that don't or can't apply to individual private citizens.
"a minority is someone who you can tell off the bat they are black/hispanic/colored. LGBT isn't a minority" - Blakkheim1
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TrevorBlack79 posted...
Mal_Fet posted...TrevorBlack79 posted...No, it definitely should. Businesses are subject to a host of restrictions that don't or can't apply to individual private citizens. You seem to be under this erroneous belief that a business isn't just a collection of individuals. Being part of a business should not mean you get less rights than others. If you believe otherwise, explain to me why it's justified for the government to force a baker at gunpoint to make a cake.
Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell |
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Mal_Fet posted...
You seem to be under this erroneous belief that a business isn't just a collection of individuals. It is indisputably more than "just a collection of individuals." Mal_Fet posted... Being part of a business should not mean you get less rights than others. It absolutely should. Does a business have the right to ignore safety regulations? Mal_Fet posted... If you believe otherwise, explain to me why it's justified for the government to force a baker at gunpoint to make a cake. Sorry, your absurd strawman will be summarily ignored. No one is forcing anything at gunpoint, but we all know you're incapable of intellectual honesty.
"a minority is someone who you can tell off the bat they are black/hispanic/colored. LGBT isn't a minority" - Blakkheim1
(edited 5 days ago)
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TrevorBlack79 posted...
It is indisputably more than "just a collection of individuals." It's a collection of individuals who produce and sell a product or service. Were they or were they not fined because a person refused to bake a cake? TrevorBlack79 posted... It absolutely should. Does a business have the right to ignore safety regulations? You have a right to not be harmed through someone else's negligence. You do not have a right to force another person to bake you a cake. TrevorBlack79 posted... Sorry, your absurd strawman will be summarily ignored. What would have happened if this baker refused to pay the fine? Would the police have said "Well, I guess that's that, carry on"?
Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell
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Mal_Fet posted...
What would have happened if this baker refused to pay the fine? The same thing that happens to anyone who refuses to pay any legal fine imposed for any legal reason. This is not "being forced at gunpoint to bake a cake," this is "being punished for refusing to pay your fines." If you think it's unfair, work to change the law. Good luck with that, though.
"a minority is someone who you can tell off the bat they are black/hispanic/colored. LGBT isn't a minority" - Blakkheim1
(edited 5 days ago)
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TrevorBlack79 posted...
The same thing that happens to anyone who refuses to pay any legal fine imposed for any legal reason. This is not "being forced at gunpoint to bake a cake," this is "being punished for refusing to pay your fines." What were they fined for, again? Also, "Eric Garner wasn't killed for selling loosies, he was killed for 'resisting'!"
Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell
(edited 4 days ago)
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44.03% of CEman are liberals lol.
Posted with GameRaven 3.2.2
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- Boards
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- Trump Sides with CHRISTIAN BAKER who REFUSED Service to a Gay Couple!!
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- Trump Sides with CHRISTIAN BAKER who REFUSED Service to a Gay Couple!!
- Boards
- Current Events
- Trump Sides with CHRISTIAN BAKER who REFUSED Service to a Gay Couple!!
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